Blizzard is asking for feedback on class balance in the Mists of Pandaria Beta. This article continues our coverage of hunter-related discussions in the thread. You’ll find all of the official posts regarding hunters in MoP in the WHH MoP Hunter Guide.
- – -
Jaecelynn wrote, “I’ve been on the latest build for a bit and I wanted to chime in. If the goal was for us to do roughly the same dps once these changes reach live as we do already, you guys probably overshot some of the nerfs on hunters. I don’t know how useful non-level 90 data is to you, but I felt this was worth speaking up about regardless.
Against a level 85 dummy, I do significantly less dps (4-5k) with a level 87 BM hunter than I do on live with a level 85 hunter – using an inferior weapon, no less. I’m not tossing this out there as a stealth ‘buff us plz’ – I was honestly kind of shocked at how much lower my dps is. That’s using Stampede, Murder of Crows, even Readiness to reset cooldowns.
Furthermore, some abilities (like autoshots and Kill Command) seem to fluctuate wildly in damage. With 0 buffs from other players I was seeing situations where they would randomly do half/twice as much damage. I’m used to that in raids, with buffs and whatnot dramatically increasing certain stats, but standalone with no buffs beyond my own? Seems odd (or maybe I just haven’t noticed it before).
Ghostcrawler replied, “When you log into the big rule changing patch, our intent is not for your DPS to change much. Hunters may be in a special situation because of the expertise change — I’ll have to dig into that more.
However, when you jump to level 87, it wouldn’t surprise me for your DPS to drop because all of your combat ratings change. This is just one of the unfortunate aspects of the way our gear progression works. The alternative, at least until we come up with something better, is your crit chance just increases each expansion until it hits 100%. It also sounds like you’re using quest greens, which might be higher ilevel, but probably can’t compete with all the gems, enchants and set bonuses of Dragon Soul gear (assuming you have some). Once you reach 90 and start getting blue and purple gear, your DPS will grow higher than it is currently on live. A lot.
Posting specific numbers (even rounded off ones, like “I do 47K”) would help.
- – -
Zeherah wrote, “I’m noticing that the damage on improved serpent sting seems to not match a logical formula since the patch hit. The best fit I can find to explain it is that it may be using the old serpent sting formula (9.7% RAP + 2030.22) instead of the new one (8% RAP + 1620.19). Applying that and the 100% bonus from the ability description gets me within a few damage of the expected amount, but it’s still slightly off.
I can’t imagine this is correct, but I was hoping you could clarify if it’s a bug or if the mechanics have changed and the tooltip wasn’t updated. I’m getting 12615 damage from imp sting with 18528 RAP and 9.84% mastery (and no debuffs on the target).
Ghostcrawler replied, “It was indeed using the old formula for Serpent Sting’s damage in Improved Serpent Sting. This has been fixed for the next build.” [link]
- – -
Lockrick wrote a post that Ghostcrawler answered point-by-point, “I’m working through implementing the hunter changes in simc. Parameter changes may get reflected very quickly some mechanics changes will not be, resulting in missing mechanics. In wiring up wild quiver to barrage, I realized that that I could use some clarification. My guess is in parens):” [link]
LR: “Is wild quiver proc’d when ranged attacks cast? or when they impact the target? (on cast)”
GC: “When the attack successfully hits. [link]“
LR: “Can wild quiver proc from an attack that misses or is dodged? (yes)”
LR: “Does a wild quiver shot qualify as a ranged attach that could recursively proc another wild quiver shot? (I would think so from the tooltip)”
GC: “No, it can’t proc from attacks that are procs themselves.”
LR: “Do non-bow attacks (e.g., trinket procs) trigger wild quiver? (no)”
LR: “Is murder of crows supposed to trigger wild quiver? (I thought yes but it doesn’t)”
- – -
Deathboxx wrote, “Ghostcrawler look at these numbers http://www.simulationcraft.org/504/Raid_T14H.html. I think you guys kinda overshot hunter nerfs a lil don’t you think? We went from being up top with Boomies and Demo locks before the nerf/patch to dead last now.” [link]
Ghostcrawler replied, “I can’t debug the Simulationcraft numbers. Those guys are working very hard from what we can tell to be as accurate as possible, but when they’re not, I am unable to give you explanations without a lot more information. If you have some raid parses or something else showing hunters on the bottom, we could discuss those.” [link]
Boomerang wrote, “Perhaps you could say where you see the specs at right now post the latest build. That was helpful last time in terms of figuring out what the discrepancy between Simc and the internal numbers are.
Overall, Simc has an impact way beyond just modeling. I don’t think I even need to describe why, just say that’s it a huge influence in the culture of the game (for better or worse, it is what it is). I think we have a shared interest in having Simc be as accurate as possible (you from a customer satisfaction standpoint, us from a modeling standpoint).
Out of left field thought: I know in the past you’ve declined to provide your own numbers, but given how complex the modeling has become, perhaps you could publish beginning tier and end tier patchwerk numbers (maybe even post the rotations you’re using) in the future.
Lockrick replied, “I’m going to clarify something for consumers of simc data. When a mechanics change hits, it takes time before simc catches up. When the client releases, many elements update based on data-mined information (hence seeing some changes very quick). However some changes — particularly mechanics changes — actually require a volunteer developer with a day job (for hunters, that’s mostly me, with lots of help from other core simc developers, Zeherah, Gahddo, etc.) to understand and analyze the mechanics changes and reflect them in code. It then takes some hours before they are reflected in the raid summary. Additionally, those changes may motivate a change in reforging or playstyle that needs to show up in the profile.”
So please, for the first days after a patch, focus on the correctness of simc: in the results, does the ability damage looks right. Is dire beast doing what you see in game? (e.g., given my AP, does the simc say each hit does about the damage that I’m seeing in my log? Does murder proc wild quiver in game but not in the sim?). These changes can easily result in a 15% difference in damage (which is a 15k swing at our current numbers).
And then look at whether the action priority is appropriate given the changes. Each sim has an example action sequence for the entire fight. You might be surprised to realize that some profiles do not cast rapid fire until 50 seconds into the fight (e.g., to avoid overlapping with bloodlust). Is that the right thing given the timing of stampede? These changes can be worth 10% of our damage. Help us tune up, and report on comparisons between talents, specs, races, shot sequences, etc. That will help us and Blizzard more than clubbing them with our not-yet-complete simulation :).
Of course GC and company should also look at our shot numbers in their copious spare time and tell me that I clearly was missing the AP component in barrage damage.
Seriously, though, GC: is there a particular style of report that would make it easier for you to help us validate our sims? We can make that more efficient for you if that helps us all!
BTW: putting parameters into the spell data has been hugely beneficial for sims. Anything that’s buried in a tooltip requires manual coding. I’ve been delighted to see the continual improvement of hunter spell in that regard. I just reviewed some of the monk spells, and feel sorry for them; it’s early stages so much is only in tooltips still.
In response to a warlock’s question, Ghostcrawler wrote, “[...] see the excellent post above by Lokrick. Don’t hold up Simcraft or any theorycrafting to unrealistic expectations. Channel your energy towards helping those guys instead. Do their numbers match what your character can achieve? Do you see anything wrong with their assumptions or calculations? Just telling us that Simcraft says you are low isn’t conveying any actual information to us.” [link]
- – -